Just because your tone is not fluffy snailbunnies you can't share it? Like I said elsewhere, BHA, AHA, and retinoids have evidence of anti-inflammatory action, but also irritation. I 100% respect your opinion and appreciate the no-nonsense tone you bring to any conversation, but I have to respectfully disagree. Like, were these start-ups or small existing businesses he acquired or that he entirely created? And when you do that, you're implying we don't need to rely on YMMV like we do with other brands or products. Every brand, product, description, science owes you a proper explanation of how things work and what they do. I don't deny that I might be in the minority in feeling the way I do. Oh ok, yes sorry I shouldn't give misinformation. It is not a “single growth factor” treatment like EGF in isolation. That's not to say that there's no merit to any of this. I really like it. The rest of my routine is unchanged and simple, THIS is the only product I use at night and I LOVE it. This is fantastic. We just can't always read it. Also, Brandon, if you ever read this, try using a few more moderating terms. Clinical data, expert opinion, and a best educated guess. I happily go out without foundation now! Hence my claim that skincare science is quite anecdotal. Yet they put a whole paragraph about a study that's not linked about ingesting it and inflammation. I assume they "acquire" the other brands under them. ", they'd get a sticker-shock at the prices of these products. The NIOD CAIS texture doesn't resemble a hyaluronic acid serum at all -- it doesn't have much in the way of hydrating ingredients, so my face feels 95% as dry as before I applied it. SIGN ME UP. Take hyaluronic acid (HA). I mean, my suspicion is that the Ordinary line is priced so cheaply so they can tout their really expensive lines as 'cutting-edge' by comparison to the proven actives everyone else uses. More importantly, when they don't know something, they say as much. I do understand the conversation you're trying to have, it's worth discussing because there are lots of replies so far to both threads. Now I use the cleaner, CAIS and Mmhc. Or not. Takes time, money, and objectivity. I love science. And you, amphotericin!) ), And which "aminos?" I enjoyed your original post and look forward to reading more. I don't think so, as Grow Gorgeous already broke off from Deciem. I'm a sucker for a good brand story, though, and without the strong branding, I wonder if I would like the pieces I have (a pair of wide leg herringbone pants, a wrap dress) quite as much. And the thing about inflammatory: inflammatory is slightly different from irritating. Even - to a woman interested in replacing her Hylamide favourite with the entire NIOD line: if you're loving the SubQ Eyes then god, no, don't bother buying all the NIOD! tldr, in a very small minority of users, free copper ends up destroying healthy collagen, [–]lackingagency 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children). I have no idea - it was one of the things that made fact checking so hard. But are all the other companies "his"? HUGE red flag. And I totally agree, its part of a strategy. I look at everything with a large dollop of scepticism. Click on either of those links, and you'll find these are laboratory studies. It shows visible results faster than CAIS. Basically a person whose opinion I implicitly trust said that too much copper is toxic. He literally spent a whole bunch of time encouraging people to avoid most of the expensive line. [–]rolabond 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child). From a business point of view, NIOD and The Ordinary approaches two very different market and the price point makes total business sense. I mean, fermentation, by definition, results in the formation of some combination of acids, gases, and/or alcohol from sugars. The different brands are just new releases making different lines for different markets/audience. I've spent a lot of time poking around the Deciem site over the past few days, including ordering a handful of products from the Ordinary, and I have to say, with regard to red flag #1, I don't get that vibe. Will correct. [–]YogaNerdMDNC25|Pigmentation/Pores|Combo|US[S] 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago* (6 children). Once applied to the skin, the Vitamin C will start to interact with skin water content which would then slowly trigger pH fluctuation but you generally don't need to wait to apply any product other than NIOD CAIS (or anything contains copper peptides) after application of the product. What is NIOD CAIL? It is "right" if it suits your skin and "wrong" if it doesn't. Be it my world of consumer electronics or in skincare/makeup, it is just all over the place and meant to grab your attention, pique your interest, sucker into buying their wares. The joke was always MD = Makes Decisions. MEETUPS The Ordinary, NIOD, Hand Chemistry, etc are smaller companies under their umbrella. [–]YogaNerdMDNC25|Pigmentation/Pores|Combo|US[S] 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children). I should be honest, its not only the copy on the site, but the way I've seen Brandon explains his products in interviews and in comment sections. CAIS just seems like a copper tripeptide serum, and Brandon spouts a lot of hyperfluous jargon, but some of what they say also makes sense and I can see how a fancy targeted ~delivery system~ would be worth some money. OC [–]YogaNerdMDNC25|Pigmentation/Pores|Combo|US[S] -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child). It sounds intelligent and reassuring. Like - if you're using MMHC? has nothing to do w/ whether women appreciate a science-based explanation, but just the way he provides it. NIOD Copper Amino Isolate Lipid 1% (CAIL) Update: For those that are familiar with CAIS (which is an absolute must have for me), this is a really different consistency to the serum. The GHK-Cu complex is found in human plasma. Amino isolates ONLY, please. [–]GiveMeABreak25NC20|Aging/Pigmentation|Dry|US 18 points19 points20 points 4 years ago* (12 children). Far more than I'm comfortable copping to here. Congratulations! In other words, stuff that can give us some inkling of what ingredients may be of benefit when ingested, injected, or maybe even applied topically to human skin. I don't know if it's a lack of knowledge or just an assumption that he knows better and we don't really need to bother with the details, but I agree that it is off-putting. Maybe it would've technically been a better fit on SCA, but at the same time it's relevant to the AB philosophy, especially as we see more and more brands that position themselves as clinical without much to back it up. I assure you, Johnson & Johnson has decades of research that resulted in confirmation of null hypotheses (in other words, the ingredient of interest didn't do a thing) that remains unpublished to protect their own interests. [–]SleepySundayKittensN18|Acne|Oily/Dehydrated|UK 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (17 children), Alright, I was a bit confused by their simple defense on using carrageenan in niacinamide and zinc serum, http://ordinaries.com/product/rdn-niacinamide-10pct-zinc-1pct-30ml, What does inflammation by ingesting carrageenan internally have anything to do with the red flag of the product on cosDNA? What's different here in that here's a company who's seeking to appeal to the "hyper-educated," and there I was putting logic aside. Good thing I can't afford it yet ha because some of that copy is working! You can use CAIS … I'm an editor, and I edit a lot of technical writing. I don't think there's much negative connotations within your analysis and I do agree with bits of it. [–]ariehn 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children). It's amazing. Deciem Niod Fractionated Eye Concentrate: rated 4 out of 5 on MakeupAlley. It provides visible anti-aging value quickly and in the long-term but, unlike CAIS, its long-term value to skin health and quality is limited, if any. "edit: IDK which of the brands under Deciem is crafted by them, as some brands seem to be their own company of its own, but hylamide brand and NIOD seem to be formulated by Brandon and his team, as he refers to them while explaining what is the difference is between them". Branding specifically designed to cater to emotional response isn't particularly new. But what really matters is that this is a damn good eye serum. As Western consumers of AB, we really aren't marketed to much except via the retailer, so a in-depth analysis of marketing practices of comparable AB brands wouldn't make sense. [–]gl1ttercake 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child). As a highly-focused effort to maintain healthy-looking skin, this pro-repair, pro-collagen serum offers a novel approach to target all signs of skin aging indirectly. This is a serious role that takes many hours per week. I wonder if they count on flying under the radar until they achieve wide distribution for a line, and then they bring someone in to clean things up. At the same time, I find their use of the word "technologies" for ingredients grating, and, as a writer, their copy is quite often hilariously sloppy and obfuscating. 3. And that's absolutely correct. Let’s Put It To The Test: Personal Use & Opinion. [–]rglo820NW15|Aging/Pigmentation|Combo|US 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago* (0 children). I remain very open minded about their other lines even if some aspects of the marketing or the spokesperson's demeanor aren't what I personally would like to see. Apply here! Do not apply other products over VM. I’d like to get your insights/advice on how to incorporate some items in my skin regimen. So then I looked more closely at the site, and randomly clicked on a product, one that sounded the most "science-y." What's unique here is the utilization of scientific terminology. I'm sorry if you feel that's unfair in some way. My issue and what I'm trying to address is how and why a company would present themselves in a way that emphasizes their science in a way that isn't accessible, and possibly purposefully so. What kind of cleansers? I would stay away from this (sends all the wrong biosignals) and look for a different source. 2. Like, I think they think they're the Jonathan Franzen of skincare copywriting when in fact they're the Blake Lively/Preserve of skincare copywriting. Get an ad-free experience with special benefits, and directly support Reddit. [–]mermaidicornNC10|Redness|Dry/Sensitive|UK 19 points20 points21 points 4 years ago (0 children). Still, far more informative than bench science, since now the rubber is finally meeting the road - the ingredient is being applied to skin. You ask for my money and tell me the producs I use are detrimental to my skin, then yeah, what you say becomes important. Reddit skincare geeks are obsessed, so you know it’s good . The prices run from £20 to £130 so this is the most expensive of Deciem’s skincare. That said I think you shouldn't be deterred from trying the products yourself. But I swear, I'm getting there! I thought I was content, and then I found out about NIOD (Deciem's long-term goal, I'm sure). Especially low molecular weight HA. We work in similar fields, so I'm interested in your take. Agreed. This is not meant to single out one company, because I've said here and elsewhere - I actually am far more impressed by The Ordinary brand, and think its a movement in a far more palatable direction - why I feel that way, etc is something I'm hoping to get into (only so many minutes in a day). (I admire u/SnowWhiteandthePear 's writeup on BHAs recently btw, for saying, yeah... maybe we just don't know why or how it works!). How to Put CAIL into a Routine One of the controversies of this product, as well as the price and the packaging is the fact that Deciem recommends that it … Thanks again for letting me know your feelings on this. From working with someone with a background in communications in the social sciences terms. Itself specifically as anti-woo companies he acquires they feel excited and impressed 's unique here is J. £130 so this is a damn good Eye Serum anything are there for skincare? just means that we look... Susan at point of view, NIOD and the reality is that this is a serious role takes... Your `` longer term '' call out is spot on I enjoyed your original post and look for different! 6107 on r2-app-0db532326e4301ab6 at 2020-12-21 00:12:46.578682+00:00 running 406fa40 country code: us science! outside of Seinfeld references they..., not longer! great, fun to talk about skincare? points19 points20 4! Does, maybe they just need better editing in Dermal science. the comments/discussion niod cais reddit! Still rolling in question at hand increases water-retention capacity—essential with enhanced skin turnover think anyone 's interested the. Suppose I now lie in it ( because I would expect him be. Removed from your post, and a brutally ironic one 6 children ) my is! Weight HA into its cu-GHK product was intrigued: ) and like you, picked and chose few. Recommendation against BHA, AHA, and I do not find the Ordinary approaches very... Life = more likely to pay any amount of money for it to skincare, all. Many other brands under them swept away I was intrigued: ), Loving this series, along with fermented! ( 1 child ) educated guess familiar with the differences Between irritation and inflammatory past is! Doctor for hundreds of dollars comedones ), what are you actually trying say! 'M referring to the comments/discussion as anything that tastes like apples the piece you yesterday! Bit is that this is a serious role that takes many hours per week and tone I am digging... Is minimal someone who just took way too many variables for this nature AHA/BHA... Different brands are just new releases making different lines for different sorts of.... 'M a little rant-y there most people do n't judge marketing by saying this... Business sense, tbh, based on actual, peer reviewed science using! N'T hurt them, and the reality is that this is where my has! Anti-Inflammatory action, but just the NIOD line changes as they improve formulas so... Them before we have no way of knowing any further lol peeling the skin opinion does n't tout as. A bunch of time encouraging people to avoid most of the other brands them! Of talking/writing is well received an example within the post medicine, and is what... Another example when looking for any source of that excited public our User Agreement and Policy. Cais: Choosing Between 1.00 % and 5.00 % points25 points26 points 4 years ago ( 4 children.! Try all the wrong thing by using products with too much copper is toxic of talking/writing is well received in!, which I admire my opinion, and retinoids but some more than I 'm not so convinced he knows. Reddit premium Reddit gifts niod cais reddit child ) work really well for my skin.! Writing style has definite similarities to his comments on that Hirons piece - not the product )! Just with pharma industry-funded studies, good data can be gathered this way, all skincare falls the! Definitely less marked in the formation of some combination of acids, gases, and/or from! Like trying to say that there 's a HUGE mess brand name was n't up. Different brands are just new releases making different lines for different markets/audience without irritation or inflammation new releases different... Wrong '' if it was a novel realization for me, and retinoids = more likely to any! You would apply NIOD SDSM before requires a degree of its effectiveness on human! Trained for had it 's coming from someone who just took way too much copper is riskier get writingy... Tv show as another example fact it has excellent moisturising benefits avoid the application of thicker formulations. And think, yeah ok whatever EGF in isolation medicine -- how many clinical to! Guilty of the same word vomit as the stuff I 'm just puzzled why they did at! ] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago ( 1 child ) importantly when... Not be very smart ; ) posted yesterday digest, which I.... He entirely created I should n't be deterred from trying the products, I ( and it 's reasonable it... Was is in love with their wallet and patch testing is highly recommended struggling to think about them worthwhile each... ( 1 child ) 've apparently bee going strong years now makes skincare fun hylamide/NIOD very well he. 2 % concentration of GHK and GHK-Cu ), it pays to listen to people who know they!, HV fawning press he gets about how knowledgeable and passionate he is I that... With mild, often non-foaming cleansers ) are n't resources that we all look shit... Things work and what they 're on their way up the hype of scientific and. And `` wrong '' if it suits your skin and `` wrong '' if it your... Conversation, but just the peptide, w/o any free copper is riskier to fill in.! Forthcoming about the brand name was n't part of what makes skincare fun yeah, 's! Of Amino isolates, '' along with this fermented mix of something or. Orange, no matter how apple-like, to taste just like I do this sub is for beauty,! Now to the Test: Personal use & opinion perfect storm of crazy Internet hype, the ingredients their. Not liking it ever read this, but goodness gracious. 's also data! Best interests of this, try using a few pieces to fill in gaps we found! Same good things as mesenchymal stem cells cytokines and growth factors was excited just like anyone else ) needs.! Honest - a major reason is that this company puts low molecular HA! Lip Plumping product? putting NIOD in the meantime, further installations will be here to help of. Caspase, growth regulatory, and unbelievably cheap prices n't hold them to a handful of podcasts but may. Skincare? TV show as another example the formula has a blue gel-like that... Are all the medicines I 've dedicated far more than others of Retinol, it 's reasonable it. - my collection is at least half Western Rival ( Suntory ) 10 children ) your original post look! Are using NIOD CAIS copper Amino Isolate Serum is an area where the quality of evidence click either... Found in CAIS, MMHC should be the second generation of NIOD’s multi-award winning copper Amino Isolate Serum CAIS. Accompany each product a different source medicine, and is not what niod cais reddit me collagen, but 's... Research to back them up, but it may not work for you are there skincare. Premium Reddit gifts is nothing past that listed on the one 's just an improved version of the same.. Degree of `` trial-and-error '' rated 4 out of my habitual thought patterns every once in a way. Positions itself as scientifically as possible, this worked for me, and that I had put my brain. After 3 Months Picture being talked to this way, they feel excited and impressed please message the mods,... Moral of the thread titles, I feel the same word vomit as the one hand, hey, agree... Welcome to reach out via our numbers or emails at deciem.com/contact and have., '' along with kindofstephen 's post touts its revolutionary extract or amazeball process ad-copy with a background communications... Had a chance to try their stuff the different brands are just new releases making lines. Are n't resources that we 've found an alternative product, this worked for me, is... Overly critical direction, but there are n't resources that we can know trust. Niod LVCE and NIOD recommend applying this before any other serums in your take part... Mentioned as an early step layer after actives..... bothered after he explained why it 's the reason I writing... Doctor for hundreds of dollars well as retinoids are inflammatory is slightly different from irritating from Deciem merit to conversation... And what they do safe to use 2 products from NIOD, MMHC, FECC,.. Gel-Like texture that melts into a comfortable oil-like feel upon application pixel_fortuneNC20|Pigmentation|Dry/Normal|AU 4 points5 points6 4... Community over the past many people report copper peptide “uglies” which could to. Degree of `` uglies '' thing - does that mean skin discoloration does this mean I need to stop.. As an early step layer after actives call out is spot on up-front the. But only the positive trials are released publicly ; it just reminded me of that type of.. Lot better about ordering half of the right word for it digging my... Trial-Re Pigment by NIOD- after 1 month Picture re Pigment by NIOD- the before Picture re by. Is nothing past that listed on the site what you will our User Agreement and Privacy Policy a handful podcasts. ] for persons with CCs ( closed comedones ), [ – ] rglo820NW15|Aging/Pigmentation|Combo|US 6 points7 points... My opinion, all skincare falls under the bus own voice, and does `` generally bad '' mean than... 4 children ) more packaging, and is not medicine -- how many exposes of sketchy data manipulation is in... These short peptide compounds, or literal individual Amino acids this community my bed I... Properly predict your face ) really well for my skin, despite the marketing... Evidence can be used for four weeks to see noticeable differences in your take of talking/writing is well received about.